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I have a friend (I know, amazing right?) who is ultra conservative. As most of you know, I am firmly entrenched on the other side of the political aisle. But despite our difference of opinion on just about every topic imaginable, we've been good friends for a decade now. But while I respect his opinion on things, something he said a few years ago has always bugged me.
He got married before I did and his son is now 3 years old. I was hanging out with him one day, shortly before my wife was pregnant, and we were debating abortion. He was espousing his pro life views and when he was done, I launched into my pro choice rhetoric. When I finished, he said something that never sat right with me.
"Just wait til you have kids," he said. "You'll change your mind."
Well, I have a son now. I went to every OB/GYN appointment during my wife's pregnancy. I was there when we heard the heart beat for the first time. I watched as her belly grew and grew to the point I thought it might explode. And you bet your ass I was there for the main event.
Watching the birth of my son was the single most beautiful and meaningful experience of my life. It was so powerful that my legs literally didn't work in the moments after he was born. I had to lean against the wall just to keep upright. It was a day when I witnessed life actually coming into this world. A moment like that can change a person, no doubt.
Except it didn't change my view on abortion. Hell, it didn't change any of my preexisting opinions. And really, why should it?
Becoming a father and witnessing his birth was wonderful, and it added to my life in an indescribable way. And that's the key: it added to my life. But even with that wonderful addition, it didn't change who I was before his birth. I didn't suddenly become a different person. And I damn well didn't feel any inclination to change my views on important topics.
Shortly after my son was born my friend came to visit. He gawked at the baby, we hugged and then we sat down for a beer. He looked at me with a sly smile on his face.
"So?" he said.
"So what?" I replied.
"You were in the room and you saw him brought into this world. You can't still be pro choice after that?" he said incredulously.
"Probably more so than ever, actually." I responded.
My wife and I had two miscarriages before Will was born. I include myself in that because even though she had to bear the physical burden of losing a baby, men suffer during those times too. And while it's not nearly as bad as losing a child after birth, it's still incredibly tough. At least it was for me and my wife.
So I get the value of a human life. I'm a parent. Of course I get it. But even though I watched a beautiful baby get brought into this world, nothing changes the fact that the government has no right to dictate what a woman does with her own body. Do some women use abortion as a form of birth control? I don't know any myself, but I'm sure they exist. And they're deplorable. But they are also the vast minority.
I imagine most women who choose to have an abortion do so after much thought and consideration. After weeks of soul-searching and going over every possible scenario. And after all that heartache, what are they treated to on the worst day of their lives? Protesters. Protesters holding signs and calling them baby killers. Protesters who sometimes choose to bomb these clinics and the doctors who perform the procedure.
Knowing all of that, why would I ever change my mind?
Some say it is murder. They're entitled to their opinion. But in the early stages of pregnancy, I believe it is a collection of cells we're talking about. Sure it's alive, but so are plants. To me, that early in the pregnancy, we're not talking about a baby. I know that sounds callous, but I don't mean it that way. It's just what I believe.
And let's say a 16-year-old girl gets pregnant. She was stupid and careless and now she's knocked up. She can't afford the baby, mainly because she's working a weekend job at Dunkin Donuts in between cheerleading practice and geometry class. Her parents aren't thrilled at the idea of raising a grandchild and their teenage daughter. College would be out the window, at least for the time being, and dad has run away screaming.
I ask you, is it better to bring that child into an unwanted environment or have an abortion? Many conservatives say have the child. The only problem is their concern for that baby ends at birth. Even though they wail away for that baby's right to live, they're also the first to condemn programs like Welfare. And that's completely hypocritical.
So she could give it up for adoption right? Yes, she could. It's a viable option. However, I could never imagine carrying a child for 9 months (or at all, since I'm a guy but you get my point) and then just giving it away. I would forever wonder about the kid. It would plague me to the point where I'd go nuts. I couldn't do it.
And let's not even talk about impregnation due to rape. The people who would force some poor rape victim to carry a child to term are of a crueler nature than I can possibly fathom.
The point is my friend was wrong. Having a son has changed me in many ways, but not one of my prior opinions or viewpoints on the major issues has wavered. Nor should it.
But maybe I'm in the minority. Did having kids change how you guys feel about important issues?
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written by eyesofbabes, October 29, 2009
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written by CharliePATpk, November 04, 2009
Of course, like you, I am not a woman, so I can't speak first hand. On the other hand, Abby Johnson has had a sort of epiphany, so there are some people who can have a change of heart and thought. (See "Planned Parenthood Director Quits After Watching Abortion on Ultrasound" http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,571215,00.html )
@eyesofbabes the difference between death penalty and abortion is the difference between guilt and innocence, but I don;t doubt you've heard that argument before also.
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written by eyesofbabes, November 04, 2009
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written by Daddy Files, November 04, 2009
And health care...I think we've covered that one. Agree to disagree.
My point was less political and more focused on the fact that for whatever reason, there are a lot of folks out there who expect changes in your personal opinions simply because you become a parent. And I don't understand that logic (or lack thereof).
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written by eyesofbabes, November 04, 2009
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written by CharliePATpk, November 04, 2009
I find it curious when I express genuine positions on topics - and how the birth of my kids affected me - it is suggested my personal opinions did not change. 14 years ag, I couldn't care less that I had benefits; they were fringe as far as I was concerned, so I had no real concept or expectation of them. Call me ignorant if you want, but I had little need for health insurance before my first born. Then he was born and I realized how important they were, and how - compared to those who were on public care - it became essential to never let myself fall into the position of having no other alternative.
You may think it is a lack of logic that opinions don't evolve or become more reinforced with the birth of a child; you're entitled that position, no matter how narrow minded some may think.
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written by Daddy Files, November 04, 2009
I didn't say opinions don't evolve or become more reinforced after kids. I said I found it surprising that many people assume your opinions on certain topics will CHANGE. As in completely reverse themselves. That's a big difference.
And as for your flippant narrow-minded comment, I find that amusing considering the source.
When it comes to health care, I think we're actually in agreement. You fear, because of the state of public health care at the moment, you and your family would be at a disadvantage. I agree. It needs to be fixed. So I'm hoping that we can create a new public option that will live up to higher standards, so that everyone will be entitled to quality care.
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written by Russ, November 04, 2009
I think the biggest thing is personal responsibility. Being held accountable for you actions. Yes, adoption is the correct answer, assuming that the parent(s)/grandparents are unable/unwilling to care for the new life. To willingly throw a life away just because it is inconvenient is frightening to me.
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written by Daddy Files, November 04, 2009
I hear you. But I disagree on one big front.
You mention the "correct answer is adoption." But I think the correct answer is different for every individual. For you the correct answer is to have the baby. But for others, it may not be. Frankly I see both sides, but I can't agree with the government FORCING someone to have an unwanted baby. That is certainly not correct in my book and that's the frightening thing.
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written by SurprisedMom, November 04, 2009
I am pro-life except in the case of rape, incest and a matter of life or death of the mother. It's not that having children changed my point of view, I've always had it. Maybe I just feel it even deeper. I've also been called names most wouldn't call their worst enemy. I usually keep my opinion to myself on this issue because I know I can't change anyone's opinion. My opinion isn't something I think, it's something I feel soul deep. I know no one will change my mind, either. You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.
Russ said it oh so elequently and I couldn't agree more.
By the way, I am grateful and thankful for those women who choose to have the baby and give them up to adoptive parents. One of my sisters and her husband have a family because of three of these women.
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written by Hossman, November 04, 2009
Second, I agree with the post. I was pro-choice before kids, same afterwards. I investigated abuse for 10 years prior to being a stay at home dad. I've seen what kind of parents people can be and the total lack of care that alot in the community give to kids once they are actually born. I know that my vision was skewed based on what I've seen, but it was a real wake up call about society as a whole. A bunch of talk before the kid was born, so very little afterwards. When we can all pull together and take care of the kids we got maybe I'll change my mind. Some people have no business bringing people into this world.
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written by Daddy Files, November 05, 2009
But you say no matter what stage of pregnancy, the baby is never just a collection of cells. Then you cite parental grief over a miscarriage as proof of this. But I disagree. I do believe in the very early stages it is a collection of cells. Living? Yes. But a person? I personally don't think so.
Yet you're right, parents do grieve. And I can tell you that I grieved over the loss of an unborn baby...twice. I've been there. But the reason I was sad is not because I believe someone died. I was sad because I was mourning the loss of potential. I had built it up in my head that I was going to be a dad, and I was extremely disappointed and sad. Because to me, there are few things sadder than wasted potential.
But that's just me, everyone is different.
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written by Mr. Man, November 05, 2009
If a woman who is not pregnant chooses to kill herself, so be it. Her choice whether anyone likes it or not. If someone chooses to destroy their lives with illicit drugs or excessive alcohol, that's on them. They are affecting only themselves.
That all changes when a woman becomes pregnant. In my view, she did not create this life. Sex was not the creation of the "life". Life is more than a collection of cells that "just happened" to form a baby. Life is the physical, spiritual, and soul given to us by the Creator. How presumptious of us, being creations ourselves, to think that we have the right to destroy life. This isn't a government issue and shouldn't be, per se. It is a moral issue.
In terms of adoption, why NOT choose this alternative? There are too many people that are unable to have children who would love to have the opportunity to raise someone else's "unwanted child". Too many people use abortion as a way out. An escape from responsibility. A quick and dirty way to solve a problem.
When you look at other parts of society, this is typical in everything. People looking for a way out, to escape responsibility, quick and dirty ways to solve problems.
Lastly, why do you think the government should stay out of this issue, but not healthcare, bank bailouts,or economic stimulus? None of these issue are truly the role of our government constitutionally.
Good post. Great discussion going on.
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written by Daddy Files, November 05, 2009
Thanks for the comments, but I have to address some issues.
First of all, the forming of a life most definitely starts with a collection of cells. And is sex doesn't create the baby then my Health teacher was a big fat liar. I hate to break it to you, but I don't believe in a Creator. And I'm definitely not alone.
You're right, it is a moral issue. But that moral issue should be decided by the individual, and that's why abortion should remain an option. After all, we all have different morals and that's OK. But by your rationale, you're essentially saying that anyone who chooses to have an abortion (or if you're a man, supports an abortion) is immoral. I don't believe that's true at all.
You ask why not choose adoption. Personally (and setting aside biological impossibilities), I don't think I could carry a baby for 9 months and then give it up. And wonder about how he is doing, where he ended up, will he come looking for me. It would literally put me in the mad house.
And do some people use abortion as a form of birth control? I'm sure they do. But do I think they're the majority? No way. Most likely, these are women of varying circumstances who are in an impossible position. Maybe their birth control didn't work? Maybe the condom broke. Or maybe they just made a mistake. Whatever the reason, you can't just make a blanket statement that anyone who mistakenly gets pregnant and has an abortion is irresponsible. That's just not true.
Finally, when it comes to government intrusion there has to be some modicum of common sense. The government is involved in all of our lives. We pay taxes and that ain't ever gonna change. So yes, the government is a part of our lives but there is a world of difference between making sure every American as the right to decent health care, and telling us what we can and can't do with our own bodies. Apples and fire hydrants.
Thanks again for chiming in, good stuff.
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written by Seash**e, November 06, 2009
Before I had kids I was absolutely against ever having a gun in my home. Since having kids I have been skeet shooting with my father, husband, and sisters. I loved it! So much so that I have asked for a shotgun. Is this change because I have kids? Partly. I would certainly want to be able to protect them in the event of full-scale chaos (but I consider that very unlikely). Mostly I simply found something I enjoy, learned more about safety, and am open to change.
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written by Daddy Files, November 06, 2009
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written by BellaDaddy, November 06, 2009
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written by Daddy Files, November 06, 2009
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written by BellaDaddy, November 06, 2009
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written by ciara, November 06, 2009
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written by Mr. Man, November 11, 2009
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written by ciara, November 11, 2009
then there's the whole thing about how a lot of people who are against abortion, but they turn around and say they are FOR the death penalty. save one cos they haven't had their time? kill another cos they have? if you consider abortion murder then in effect wouldn't death penalty be that as well? i happen to feel death penalty is fine for some crimes mostly those involving children.
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written by DaddyGerbz, November 11, 2009
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written by Daddy Files, November 12, 2009
As to some of your other points, I think that's a conversation for another day. But I disagree with your unscientific statement that the interests of legislators rarely coincides with the general public. That may be true for some people, but I personally would never vote for someone who didn't share many of the same beliefs and priorities as my own. You may never get 100% accord, but to say they "rarely if ever" coincide is just not true.
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